From Single-Location to Multi-Location: Navigating the Path to Dental Practice Growth with Darin Acopan 

Darin Acopan  00:00 

So I think at the end of the day is just having that abundance mindset that’s typically not taught. So I would say this, everything you learn in formal education, whether you’re a clinician or not, becomes obsolete by age 40. It’s really just, when you look back to the history of the education system, it was designed for mass production on assembly lines to create sheep, so that you will do the same rote tasks for decades on. 

 

Shawn Zajas  00:24 

The future of dentistry belongs to the innovators. Welcome to innovation in dentistry. I’m your host, Shawn Zajas. And I believe that the future of dentistry is going to be unbelievably great over the next decade in two decades. But the question isn’t that the question is, are you going to be part of what makes dentistry Great? Hey, so I am super excited today to be with Darren aka Pong. And, man, when I think about innovation, I think like Darren is an innovative, just individual as a leader as a networker. But then he also is with a company do that is blazing innovation in dentistry. And he’s also helping lead and partner with dentists nationwide that are taking that step from solo practice to small or large DSO. So in every sort of way, Darren, I just want to honor you and acknowledge you as an innovator. Thank you so much for joining me today. 

 

Darin Acopan  01:33 

Well, Sean, you and I go way back. So happy that you took the leap of faith and started your own podcast, I think it’s gonna serve you. Well, I think you’ve got a lot of people in your network that needs to have their stories told. So thanks for having me on. 

 

Shawn Zajas  01:47 

So, unlike a lot of the people I interview you, or interview, you have a lot in common with me in the sense that we’re in this crazy space in dentistry. But we’re not dentists. You You’re not a hygienist. You’re not a dentist. You’re not some specialist. Darren, how did you end up in this crazy and intriguing industry? 

 

Darin Acopan  02:09 

That’s a great question, Sean. So yeah, I’m not a clinician by any trade, not even on the business side of dentistry prior to getting into dental right. So my background is started off in finance, then got into this company that you may have all remembered if you’re over the age of 40, for sure. But even some of those in your 30s there was this big, big infomercial blitz on this exercise equipment called the Bowflex back in the days back in the 90s. In the 2000s, Bowflex was everything. It was like way bigger than peloton. And so what happened is I went to school with a couple of the early sales team members and had relocated from Hawaii which are originally from to the Pacific Northwest, where where Bowflex aka the Nautilus company is actually founded. And they said, you know, you’d be pretty good at this with your sales background. And so, started off in sales inside sales, worked my way up the ranks and eventually became part of the management team that scaled the Bowflex brand from 50 million in revenues over a course of nine years, 400 million in revenues. And so a lot of lessons learned we went through for CEOs during that time, we went through a lot of growing pains. So just like in dental, as you’re going from one location to multilocation, to large DSO, I know exactly what that feels like outside and another, another industry. So after my ninth year, I said, You know what, I kind of have vested in my options, I feel like I want to start another chapter in my book. So I exited. And that’s when a friend of mine recruited me into dental. So I had no idea why I didn’t even know what a pro fee was back then. Right? I’m like, why are you recruiting me? I have no idea what Dental is, I mean, I go get my cleanings every six months, but I’m probably not the right guy. And they said, You know what, you’re really good at bizdev you will really thrive. And there’s a segment of the industry that’s multilocation slash DSO. And I think you’ll be a good fit for it. So the very first DSO conference over one two is Brian Koleos Dykema event. And for those of you that have been going to Dykema for years, I mean, I think this was the third or fourth year they did an event and it was like in the basement of the a loft in Dallas with no windows. But you you just felt the energy. It was so different from going to some of the other larger national dental conferences that are more designed for solo location owners. And so I said, Yeah, this this feels right. And so I haven’t looked back and I tell anyone, Sean that in dental whether you’re a clinician or on the business side, or any anything else, it’s like the Hotel California once you get in, you’re never going to get out, especially right now. Like it’s just too fun. Too many connections. A lot of people you know, they have their ups and downs, but it’s just really been on this upward trajectory. I wouldn’t want to be in any other industry today. 

 

Shawn Zajas  05:01 

You know, it’s interesting Darren, because what you describe as kind of getting pulled into dentistry to bring almost like first rate, fortune 100 fortune 500 company excellence skill ability and bring it into dentistry is exactly why the DSO model began to thrive when it did anyway. You know, it’s because there’s money in dentistry. And yet there’s also this massive disconnect between the clinician being first rate when it comes to processes marketing, business strategy. And it’s interesting, like you didn’t get hired for a DSO, you got hired as a company that’s serving dentistry and helping other practices actually make that leap and make that scale. And that’s exactly what you do you show up with this professionalism. bizdev Are you kidding me during every time I reached out to you, I just start recording it now. And like seeing like, what the record is of like how quickly you get back to me? Because you would you’re just an asset for any organization like do is incredibly fortunate to have you. And I know at the same exact time, you love being part of the EO because of what they stand for. Because of the long game, tell us a little bit more about how CEO got started, and really the mission that they’re on. 

 

Darin Acopan  06:17 

Yeah, great. Great question, Sean. So do or a former version of it was actually the brainchild of our founder, Dr. Mark Cooper. So he was a periodontist by trade. Started off in Seattle back in 1984. And really, he ran things on his own for a long, long time. For those of you that know, Mark, I mean, he has he’s like the docente man, he’s like a renaissance man. He’s done everything in his career. Oh, gee, inside, inside of dentistry and outside of dentistry. In fact, the very first speaker that we had at the summit that you’ll be attending next month, it was in Seattle, because that’s where Mark was from. It was Dr. Rick workman in Portland. And I think this was back when Heartland was maybe 30 locations. And now they’re closing in on 2000. And so there were 70 people in the room. And today, the summit is 800 to 1000. Really, really surreal entrepreneurs. And so it’s just amazing to see it grow from that initial mastermind group to what it is today. So what happened is in 2017, Mark was looking to exit from mastery company, aka do and so, very fortuitously, our CEO and Managing Partner Jake Poole just exited from his digital marketing agency called Fire getting dental marketing. So Jake, then partnered up with Mark became the CEO, they rebranded for mastery company to do. And at that time, this is in 2017. I said, Hey, if there’s an equity part of the pie that’s carved out for me, I will totally come on board. And let’s scale this up. So that’s what happened. We had handshake agreements. Funny enough, our friends at Tusk brokerage with Kevin combustor, Walker and parent at the time, we were in like the same workspace in New Orleans, because we were there for Dykema. And I think we both started our companies at the same time. So were dear friends with the boys at Tusk as well. And so at the time, I think there were maybe 20 or 25 organizations. So when I say organizations, these are different dental groups, right? It could be one location, it could be multi location, but separate entities. So I think there were about 2025 in 2017, and six years later, I mean, we’re on a tear, it’s closer to 300. So of the 300. Yeah, about 60% Are GPS, the other 40% are special specialists. 30% of the 300 are single location, but it’s not uncommon for a deal member with one location to have 20 Opps. And then the remaining 70 have multi location. So again, they’re they’re independent of one another. But if you were to combine revenues and location count together, do represents about 1900 locations and 3 billion a year in revenues. So it’s very humbling to know that it started from, you know, the mind, Mr. Cooper, to the 25 locations to now to the 300 organizations. It’s just super humbling. And to your point, Shawn, we kind of cater to owners that are doing about 1.5 million in production, all the way up to the $200 million mark. So that’s kind of our sweet spot. 

 

Shawn Zajas  09:20 

So Darren, before we dive into a little bit more about the disruption that DCEO is part of, and the innovation that you’re seeing in the dentists that are kind of ready to make that leap. I want to go just a little bit deeper, like into your story, because here you are wildly successful. It seems like you had a great stint with Bowflex, and then all of a sudden now part of this radical scale with the CEO providing incredible value to an industry. And with this podcast like innovation in dentistry, I’m not really talking about clinical innovation. Thank God I’m not talking about product innovation, I’m talking about what is it about the mindsets that we have that give us that permission to really to pioneer to step it up and to do things in a different way, you know, on your growth journey? Could you identify maybe a mindset either that you had to overcome. Because I just feel like you play such a high level, with such a high level of professionalism. And at the same exact time, it’s almost like you’re robotic in the way that you are consistent. And I envy that because I feel like, I might be a little more artistic, even though by looking at your background. I love that art, by the way. But getting what I’m trying to say here is that I have such admiration for the excellence that you carry. And I don’t know, was this something that was just in you in high school? And you just kind of, I don’t know, it’s like it’s innate, or there’s certain things you had to overcome when it came to either belief sets or mindsets? 

 

Darin Acopan  10:57 

Well, I think having the right mental models is key, right. And so for those of you that don’t know what I’m talking about, when I say mental models, it’s just the rules of the game, the rules of life, you basically, for you, and I Sean, as as entrepreneurs, and for the vast majority of your audience, you get to carve your own destiny. You might feel handcuffed to the current job, whether it’s high pain or not currently, but really, when you say you have no time and you have the best intentions to do something in the future, you and I were just talking about this on the podcast, right? It’s like when someone says they don’t have time, it’s BS, you make time for what’s important to you. You asked me to be on this podcast yesterday, I scheduled it for today. I move things around, because this is a high priority, right? You’re a friend of mine, I want to see your podcast thrive and do well. I think it’s good for the industry. So I think at the end of the day, it’s just having that abundance mindset that’s typically not taught. So I would say this, everything you learn in formal education, whether you’re a clinician or not, becomes obsolete by age 40. It’s really just, when you look back to the history of the education system, it was designed for mass production on assembly lines, to create sheep, so that you would do the same rote tasks for decades on him. Well, we’re way beyond that now with chat GPT, and open AI and everything else. So I’m just trying to ride the horse in that direction. It’s running. And I found that two things. In formal education, when you plagiarize, and you copy answers out the smartest kid in class, you get suspended or expelled. In the real world, you make a ton of money. The other thing is, it is a popularity contest. And there is in any industry, whether it’s dentistry, or anything else, there is a country club. And your job as a professional is to get your foot in the door to get a chance to have a seat at the table. So the way I did that is when I left Bowflex coming in as a non dentist, because dentists don’t trust non dentists. I went to about 10 to 12 conferences a year for four years straight. So I’ve gone to probably more conferences than I mean, maybe Brian Callejo, and them all have more than me, but very few on that list. And that’s just the way it’s done. You have to break that in person coming to things like the CEO summit next month, or die coma the month after, like that is a necessary evil, in order to establish yourself as an individual. But then as a brand within your brand. I don’t care if you’re an account executive at fill in the blank supply or lab company, like your job is to build and promote yourself as the number one person in your niche doesn’t mean you’ll always be in that segment. But people are going to I mean, your reputation is the only thing that you take with you when you die. So right one week, 

 

Shawn Zajas  13:43 

you just keep dropping things here like this is I can’t believe this is free, we should be charging you 

 

Darin Acopan  13:49 

one weekend, right at a live event, whether it’s our event or someone else’s, you’ll get more accomplished in that one week, and then you will a whole year’s worth of cold outreach. It’s just that’s just not the way to stun especially in Dental. Right. And for those of you that are doing Click Funnels and campaign blasts, you know what, go check the average dentists at the next conference, go check their unread emails, it’s probably in the 1000s or 10s of 1000s, they have probably four or five email accounts, just to filter out the fluff. So the only way you can make inroads is in person. And the first the first year you’re going to be, you know, eating crow, you’re not going to be making a lot of friends. But you go there year two, year three, and you’re consistent. And your goal is not to sell yourself or even the product you’re representing. Your goal is to find out what their problems are. And find the person in the audience that has the solutions. That’s what I do at events. If you ever see me at an event. I’m like a ninja. I will say Shawn, what’s your problem? Oh, I know exactly who you need to talk to you. I’ll connect you and then I’m gone. I don’t even care if you do business with me, but I just know that you’re in a much better place than when you first came to me. So that’s really what what I I do best is I’m able to connect people with the problems with people with solutions. A lot of times those solutions are in the deal. But even when they’re not, I know who has the answers to the test. So that’s really what it is when you’re networking. It’s really about matchmaking. And being that problem solver, you don’t have to have the answers. I think that’s the mistake that people have is, I have to know the answers to all the questions. It’s like, No, I just need to know the person that does. And the only way you know and build your network is by getting out there in the real world out from the comfort of your own home, and or office, and getting out there into the real environment. And it’s worth, it’s like getting your MBA, you’re paying for your MBA to go to these events. There’s just no shortcut around it. 

 

Shawn Zajas  15:42 

Okay, so it is fascinating to me, because so much of what you said, is what I’ve identified in the highest achievers that I’ve ever talked to, or gotten to know. And that is that you’re always playing the long game, you are 100% dedicated Darren, to serving others, and what’s in the best interest of those around you, like selflessly. And I think you’ve also identified like who you are, like, you know, you’re a networker, you know, you’re gifted to be that and you’re not trying to show up and serve with strength that you don’t have, in some way of having to fake it. Like you’re completely authentic to the way that you were designed to be. And you just almost like shine in that. And I love that you called yourself a ninja that. That is That is so true. You are like a ninja. And I just I’ve admired that and seen that. So I can absolutely honor you in that. I’m curious, what is your perspective, on risk? And on failure, because I feel like those are two terms that I see dentists struggling with, because when it comes to clinical dentistry, they really want to mitigate risk, right, where no one wants lawsuits. And the idea of failing is terrifying to them. And you just said something so profound at the end there. Darren? Well, you were saying, it’s when you get out of your office and actually get into the marketplace. One of the things that I 100% believe, is that true learning doesn’t take place in the boardroom. It doesn’t take place in the school room where you get theory, it’s only when that theory, even from a book is tested by engaging with the marketplace, that true learning takes place. And I feel like that’s what you’re saying like, Hey, you’re a dentist, go out there, like get your feet wet, dive into where dentistry is growing and where it’s happening. And only there do you actually like, find out what’s real, you know? 

 

Darin Acopan  17:34 

Great question. So I don’t live in the world of micros micro surgeries, Shawn, and neither do you. Right. And so putting your efforts towards being the best clinician possible. There’s nothing wrong with that. But there’s only so far you will be able to take the business, and there’s only so much impact you’ll make. I am never going to fault you if you are a dentist and you want to be at the chair for 40 to 50 years of your career. But chances are you won’t have the same level of impact. If you have an associate driven model, whether your one large flagship group practice or your more of the traditional multilocation model. How many more people are you being able to impact as as a lot of people ask myself and my partners? Like why don’t you all just run a DSL, and a lot of the reason is because it would limit our impact, right as as an education company, the 1900 locations, you multiply that by the headcount of staff at each location, I’m able to have that much impact. Versus if we were running a DSL, maybe we’d be 20 to 50 locations, that’s great. More money in the bank is not really going to motivate me at this point in my life. But impact will. So I think you as a clinician out there if you’re listening or even on the business end of things, like you kind of owe it to yourself, if you’ve got this one crack at it, if you’ve got this one life to live, like what type of impact are you trying to make. And if it’s just for yourself, and then there’s just you know, the financial motivation of having money in the bank and rent renting it lean, that’s fine. But I don’t know if at the end of your career, you’ll be happy and satisfied with not taking the risk of what could have been. And so that’s what I mean by getting yourself out there. Here’s the good news. You suck at networking, you’re introverted, I’m actually secretly introverted. I just learned how to turn it on at the events and on podcasts. But if you suck at networking, here’s the good news on a normal distribution, so to eight out of every 10 dentists so if you can be that one that forces yourself to get out of your comfort zone and just ask questions and learn about people. Then my God, you will be able far here’s the here’s the number one hack that I used to utilize and I recommend that anyone if you’re super introverted and you go to your next conference, the first question after you introduce yourself is no Hi, this is I’m Dara, and this is what I do. Who’s the most interesting person you’ve met so far? Just ask that question is that person and keep asking that question. When you start hearing the same name over and over, that’s the person that you hit up. Because they’re the common denominator. Yeah. So that’s what I basically did is I basically did that over and over and over again, coming in as an outsider. And then I’m like, okay, Brian callosum? No, okay, I’m all someone to know. Okay, these are the large, larger DSOs. These are the executives, these are the people that are on the biz dev team, like you start connecting the dots. And so what happens is you take this ecosystem of 200,000, dentists, down to 200 thought leaders, and all you need to do is network within that 200. And I could probably do the same thing in vet, vision, med spa, any other any other industry has this, these versions of conferences to build out your network, but you do have to put in the time. 

 

Shawn Zajas  20:59 

So Darren, you personally with like, let’s say, setback, let’s say something where, I don’t know, you were kind of expecting this, and it didn’t work out this way. Like, think of a time when maybe you were at your lowest professionally, what did you actually do? Because you didn’t give up like here you are contributing to one of the leading, you know, companies in the industry? Like, how, how did you how did you overcome, because I feel like it’s in those moments that we find out really who we are and are made of. And I think a lot of dentists that are scared to scale, that are scared to take that leap, are afraid that they’re going to hit some sort of catastrophic failure. And yet, stories about me and you that have kind of gone to those places and overcome, I feel like that can be incredibly valuable. So take us to one of those places, if that’s ever happened, because I don’t know maybe 

 

Darin Acopan  21:51 

you’ve been on that it has it has like, I’ll give you something that I haven’t really even told a whole lot of people. Whenever you exit a business, even if there’s money in the bank, you go through almost state of depression, because it’s so much of a piece of you. And I think mainly for the male Alpha types. So much of who we identify ourselves to be as our careers. And that’s actually a bad thing. But it is what it is, right? So much of who you get up in the morning and say, I’m Shawn and then you. I’m founder of x, right, I’m there and I’m a partner at IDEO. Like that is so much of what we hang our hat on. And I actually think women do a lot better job of compartmentalizing and separating the professional and personal. That being said, after I exited Bowflex with my options, like money wasn’t an issue anymore. But literally not being able to go to work the next morning and being someone on status within an organization, you start like wondering what the hell am I going to do with your life my life now. And so there was like a period of time of six months, where I literally just to keep my sanity, I took a part time seasonal job at my local Costco to push carts to just do something and go somewhere. Like I literally still have my Costco badge. I don’t show anyone in it. But I’m actually probably gonna frame it and put it behind me one day. But that’s that probably was the best three month hiatus because I got to do something mindless but I still got to actually go through the ritual of going somewhere. And then from there, that’s when I got the tap on the shoulder saying, Hey, do you want to come into dental? Had I not gone through that period, and I just sat home sulking or once 24 Hour Fitness or went golfing to nauseam? Like I probably wouldn’t be where I’m at today. So what I would say is for any of you, especially for those that like right on the precipice of exiting, like, you’ve got to have something to keep you busy, doesn’t mean it has to make money. It doesn’t even have to be business related. But it’s got to be something to get your mind moving. So that you’re not still living in the past of oh, I used to be fill in the blank. Because you see a lot of that in our industry, right? Oh, I used to be x or I used to be y. And it’s like, you know, what do you want to be tomorrow, you still got a lot of runway left in your career. And so, I mean, that was one prior to do I was actually at another consultancy with my one of my partners Josie school. So we were at a dental consultancy that’s defunct now, but it was called Stratis Dental. And the reason why it was founded is because the owner actually had the number one group purchasing organization for Audiology. And so he ended up selling that business for 77 times EBITA. But the dental side never ever took off. The reason he got into dental was because his friend was Dr. Bob Rando. So for I’m really going to date some of you now, back in the day practice management. There used to be this Casey patient education training that was on DVDs. And and Bob ended up selling the business to Patterson for a grip of money. So Bob and Brandon were friends and Bob’s the one that influenced Brandon to get into dental. But during my tenure at Stratis that’s where I got to have Stratos pay for me to go to a lot of these conferences to build my network. Josie actually went on to become head of clinical hygiene and then eventually CEO of Carolinas dentists. So Dr. Eric Roman’s DSL that he co founded. And then that’s when I got the chance to be a partner at the El Sol. And then everything came full circle right now Josie and Eric are partners in the deal with Jake, myself. And Emmett. And life is great. So I mean, every everything comes full circle, just, if you do the right thing, always without to your point, Shawn expecting anything in return? Like it’ll usually come back tenfold. And even if it doesn’t, you can go to bed at night, knowing that, hey, you’re trending in the right direction might not always be fast. But it’s the right direction. And the direction you go is way more important than how fast you go. Right? No, absolutely. 

 

Shawn Zajas  25:43 

And I think in line with that, one of the things that I’ve really identified that helps me is that a lot of people have kind of that saying like no regrets, and I understand what they’re saying. But for me, I actually think the power of regret is a really strong motivator in the future. So I’m always thinking, what am I going to have greater regret over doing something? And it not really turning out and failing? Or being timid and wondering what could have been like, I will have regret. Like, at the end of the day, 10 times more over what I didn’t do the dreams in my heart I didn’t pursue simply because I there wasn’t a guarantee that it would be safe. Yeah. Or that would work out. Like I love bursting that illusion, like there’s no safety in dentistry, like there doesn’t need to be safety in any endeavor. But that’s where that reward comes in. And just being fine with that tension of you didn’t know do was going to work out the way that it did. 

 

Darin Acopan  26:37 

You know, I told Jake Sorry to interrupt, I told Jake No, and an alternate universe, we totally screwed it up, and it imploded. But in that universe, we still learn so much of working with the members that we work with, that you can rent your ticket to any dental group that you want to be a part of, they’d be happy to have you on board. So when you look at the worst case scenario, and I just want to pivot to this, and we can get back to what you were talking about, as a dentist, if you are an owner today, and I’m talking to you, if you have one location, and you’re really scared about getting an associate, or getting an additional location, if you have an associate, what is the worst case that could happen to you today? You could lose everything. Absolutely everything. Your reputation could be tarnished, you’d be sad. And guess what the next day, you’d associate somewhere, and you’d make $350,000 a year. That is your worst case, absolute worst case scenario if you’re a clinician. So if your worst case is better than most people’s best case, why would you not take that risk and leap of faith on yourself? It makes no sense to me whatsoever, when there’s only upside and your downside is I’ll lose everything. And I’ll have to be an associate again. Like just think about it for a minute that that is absolutely the worst case, Shawn you and I don’t have that luxury. So if you’re a clinician, like there’s almost no downside to optimizing and scaling up. So sorry, I want you to continue with your train of thought when I cut you off. 

 

Shawn Zajas  27:57 

No, I please always feel if you get something because of what I’m saying. Please interrupt me because it’s way more important than what I actually am saying. And this is actually the best transition because I don’t know if it’s right to say that you’re you could act kind of as like a gatekeeper or do seeing the people are the practices that are about to join or partner with you guys. I don’t know what what word would you use? Great question. 

 

Darin Acopan  28:24 

So we’re an education company. So yeah, I am. I am the solo. Dean of Admissions, I guess, right. I’m the one that does all the interviews, we don’t do any cold outreach, people schedule time with us, I usually say no to seven out of every 10 applicants, just to be straightforward. But of those seven, I will refer you to someone else that I think is a better fit, I will never ever leave you on a lurch. struggling, I always want to put you in a better place than when you first scheduled time with me. And I’ll give you a couple of free resources by scheduling time with me. That being said, I want there to be optionality, right? And sometimes, for a lot of Doc’s if you’re less than five years from retirement, and it just doesn’t make sense to scale up, then I’m going to be straightforward with you and say you should just ride this out into the sunset and or look for a more traditional exit strategy if you don’t have an associate to hand the baton off to. So I’m always going to advocate advocate for for the actual person on the other end of the line because do is successful, with or without them. And quite frankly, with or without me, I’ve got really great partners. And that’s what I would say, Shawn is the way you mitigate risks in a business is for those of you that have no partners and you’re proud of it, or you don’t have an associate because you tried one or two and it didn’t work out. That is actually the wrong mentality to have. If you have a really good partner team, your chances for failure go drastically down. And for me and Shawn, I think you’re going to interview some of my partners in the future. Having Jake Emmett, Eric and Josie back me. It’s like the NBA Dream Team with Jordan and Magic Johnson. It’s hard to screw that up, you can basically fill in any role player with that team, and they’re going to succeed. So that is my advice to those entrepreneurs out there listening, get the right leadership team in place, because even if you have to dilute your position on the cap table, the pie will grow way faster than if you try to go it alone. 

 

Shawn Zajas  30:20 

Okay, Darren, seriously, you just keep dropping these nuggets that is incredibly profound and incredibly helpful. Because for me, also, I don’t like going in it alone, I actually want to surround myself with other people that are smarter than me, and have strength that complement mine, because together the synergy can, like you said, can 10x or 20x, where we can go. So I love that philosophy. So as dean of admissions, so to speak, this is what I’m fascinated by, you see people coming all the time. And they’re playing with this idea of of scale, maybe they have one location, maybe there you have two, what is a mindset or belief that you see that kind of a tell you I want both both both sides of it, that they aren’t really ready. And you can tell they’re still stuck in some wrong mindset? Or what positive mindset do they have that you’re like, Oh, my God, you are my people like? Yes, you have, you’re ready to take that step. 

 

Darin Acopan  31:20 

Great question. So you and I, prior to this podcast talked about abundance versus scarcity mindset, if I hear scarcity mindset dominate the conversation, scarcity, meaning, it’s everyone else’s fault, it’s not mine, my staff sucks, my clinical team doesn’t do what I tell them to. If my patients, I just am not getting the right patients. Like if I see all these out, this outward blaming, and oh, there’s too much competition, you don’t understand my practice, I just can’t build it the way that your other clients build it. It’s like, yeah, you’re probably right. Because it’s a self fulfilling prophecy, your worst enemy is the six inches between your ears, like you will never ever be able to get out of your your rut and you’d like to be there, you’re actually perfectly designed your business to be a very high stress job. And that’s fine, if that’s what you want, but it’s probably not a fit for us. So there’s that. I mean, I mean, growing grateful, generous, and humble are four core values at the deal. And so I’m always vetting for that. I’m looking for people that are humble enough to say, hey, Shawn, I think I’ve taken the business as far as I can get it, I just don’t know what to do next. And then it’s scary. Like, that’s a perfect person for us to work with. Because, you know, they, and I already tell them, I say, hey, in order for you to have this conversation with me, you’re at 1.5 million, you’re double the national average, give yourself some slack, that’s very hard to get to that $1.5 million mark on your own. Now, your desire to get to 10 locations and 10 to 15 million in revenues, it’s probably going to take more time than you have right now. And you’re actually going to go through a period of a long dark tunnel, where you actually go from taking home this to it’s going to drop down because you’re gonna have to reinvest everything back into the business until you get on the other side. So let’s have a conversation, see if it’s worth it for you. And that’s really just what entrepreneurship is, at the end of the day, right? You taking a risk on this podcast is a lot of forward investment, that you’re not seeing the return on that investment for a long time. And that’s okay, because it’s a passion project. So that’s the other thing too is, you know, you’re doing the right thing. When when times get tough, you still get excited about it. Right? If you’re doing it just for the money, anything I’ve ever done in my life, which is very rarely, just for the money has always turned out disastrous. 

 

Shawn Zajas  33:35 

Yeah, no, I, I completely agree with that. Darren. So. So if I’m a dentist right now, and I’m listening to this, and I feel like I’m not an entrepreneur, is there still hope for me to own lead and manage a DSL? 

 

Darin Acopan  33:51 

I mean, it’s not as hard as you think. Because you’re not doing it alone. Right? You’re getting a team around you, that has more expertise. You wouldn’t want you and I to do an all on x. I could go on YouTube, and learn how to do it. But that’d be disastrous. But why do you think on the business side of things, if you’ve not taken one business course, or one HR course, what makes you think you can recruit the right talent, and retain the right talent to help you scale. So you’re going to need to release some of this command and control mentality and move into more of a true servant leader, which is I hire and recruit the best people I can. And I basically give them the tools and the resources to help them succeed and get the hell out of their way. And they can do it way better than I can. So I mean, going from the former mentality, to to an abundance mindset is not something that comes naturally. So you asked me like, how am I able to drop all these knowledge bombs? I probably am doing two to three hours a day of continuing ed, whether it’s podcasts, reading books, it’s every day, even on the weekends, like religiously, and you do that for 10 years or so. And you compound the gains you get from that. You’re still not going to have all the answers to the test. But I know I’m a better version of myself do than the Bowflex version of Darren than the Stratis dental version of Aaron. And whatever the next chapter is beyond do like, I know, I’m going to be a lifelong learner. And I think that’s the other thing I look for as well as like, what other coaching groups? Are you a part of what other consultants have you used? When someone says zero, it’s actually not the best thing that means they haven’t invested in themselves. So I’m always looking for someone that came from scheduling Institute, or they might have gone through Mark Costas as mastermind group or breakaway with Scott Luna, whatever it is, is like, Okay, this is someone that understands the value of making investments in him or herself, because that’s actually where you get the highest return on investment. It’s like you already spent six figures learning how to do full mouth restorative, but you’ve only done two procedures in your life. Why not learn the business side of things where you have to interact with your staff every day? 

 

Shawn Zajas  35:55 

Yeah, again, I agree. I, I was listening to some business mentor of mine. And I was telling him about my experience. And he just, he just kind of probed, he’s like, Well, do you actually have that amount of experience? Or did you just experience the same year, like 10 or 12 years over? And I thought about what he meant by that. It’s like, you’re not the Darren of Bowflex? Because you’re not just repeating the same year of experience, because of that curiosity, because of that drive because of that self development. And again, that that is like Leaders are readers like, you know, I always tell my son, my oldest son is 10 right now. And he has all these visions for greatness and impact. And I’m like, read his Oh, no, Dad, no read, like read you need to read you need to become a self learner if you want to go anywhere in life. And with that, Darren, what would be a book or a resource, and it can it can even be a DTL resource that you think would really serve dentistry. 

 

Darin Acopan  36:54 

So for dental and then I’ll go into non dental for dental. There’s a reason why we have a media company on the back end. So right Emmett Scott’s authored a DSO secrets book. Can Kaufman DSO financial secrets? Those are two high recommend highly recommended books on dental. Fernanda and I’ll give you some of my best books. Say anything is a very short read by Derek Severs. He’s the founder of CD Baby sold it for 10s of millions of dollars. And basically his motto in life is it’s either got to be a hell yeah. Or it’s a hell no. Anything Tim Ferriss, Tim Ferriss, four hour workweek, right? Huge podcast. Tribe of mentors is like my favorite type of book where he basically interviews just like you’re interviewing thought leaders in our industry. He’s interviewed thought leaders in all of the industries and compiled it into like one encyclopedia, Britannica sized book. So tribal mentors, and the other one is called Tools of Titans. Those are two good ones. Aside from that, I would say whether you’re in business development or sales, or not, you actually are right. So never split. The difference is a great sales book for case acceptance. It’s actually one of the former top CIA hostage hostage negotiators authored it. And it has like some mind blowing, ninja moves on sales. The Challenger sale is another great book. Other ones, there’s actually a talk about mental models, Shane Parrish, he has his own podcast. But he authored three Farnam Street is his company, he authored three volumes of books called mental models, mental models, Volume One, two, and three, highly recommend you get them, like so everything that I basically just just gave you, is what I would say that are in my top 10 or 12 books of all time that sit on my shelf. And I’m literally reading about two to three books at any given time. And what I do is I doggy are specific passages in the book that I like. And then at the end of a quarter, I’ll take all the books, I’ve read that quarter, and actually just do my own version of CliffsNotes on all those dog eared sections, and then I have it on a Google Doc and actually share it with my entire do stuff. So there’s like hundreds of books and knowledge bombs in there. 

 

Shawn Zajas  39:13 

That is amazing. I got a 

 

Darin Acopan  39:15 

quick question for you, though. On your son. Yeah. So one of our dentists in Alaska, he has the largest DSL in Alaska. I got the idea from him. So my daughter is the same as your son hates to read, but knows that basically, hey, this is an education for you more than you’ll actually get in traditional education. So what I had to do is I had to, I had to sweeten the pot, any book that she reads, and I’d recommend you do something similar for your son, any book that she reads, and has a substantial conversation with me about the book and what she learned. I’ll give her $100 on the spot. So I don’t give allowances. I don’t give any birthday money or anything like that. You want a new pair of Nikes go read a book you You want the car go read a book. 

 

Shawn Zajas  40:03 

I was gonna say how old is she? 

 

Darin Acopan  40:04 

She’s going to be 17. So she’s a junior. 

 

Shawn Zajas  40:08 

So for a 10 year old, would you recommend $100? 

 

Darin Acopan  40:11 

You can start off with 20. It’s, it’s totally or I mean, here’s the thing is, it just depends. I mean, whatever, whatever you think is gonna motivate them. But you’ll get to the point where it’s like, oh, no, they’ll actually read for for the sake of reading. 

 

Shawn Zajas  40:25 

Okay, I absolutely love that. And I’m taking, I’m taking that. And so Darren, thank you so much. My wife is gonna thank you for that too, because we have five kids, and we all love reading, but it’s different how we like reading, like some of my daughter’s love just fiction. And I’m not as much of a fiction reader, it’s actually hard for me to read fiction, like, I just need to be learning something and you can learn a ton from fiction, don’t get me wrong, some of the deepest lessons about humanity. And then tragedies, you actually learn from the story, not just the punch line, right? Because you can put it together. But for me, like in my office, right now, I probably have 150 books. My issue is I have a bookmark and probably 70 or 80 of them, because I’m not good at, I’m not actually good at finishing them. Like I just get super curious. And I’ll dive into a chapter or chapter on this. And then all of a sudden, it’s like squirrel. So the fact that you finish books. That’s, that’s really impressive. 

 

Darin Acopan  41:24 

Here’s the deal, you’re actually doing it the right way. And then I’ll just digress for a little bit. If it’s a book that Isabel wants to read, she’ll get $10. But if it’s a book that I assign, she gets to choose from it. That’s where the $100 comes in. So that’s what you can do for your kids. Now, back to the way you read, it’s actually the way that most fortune 50 entrepreneurs read, which is they use books as a reference, they don’t read them from cover to cover. I think it’s just my personality, where I have to get closure on the matter where I have to read it from cover to cover. I’m trying to work myself out of that. Because really, it’s not the it’s not really the the reading of cover to cover. It’s the one or two nuggets that you’re going to take an execute, right? Because if you don’t execute it, then it’s like, well, there’s a lot of other things I could do besides reading, that would be more fun. So I think the way that you’re doing it, if it works for you keep doing it. Don’t Don’t worry about reading cover to cover because you’re only looking for one or two tidbits. 

 

Shawn Zajas  42:20 

Awesome. That’s, that’s good to know that maybe it’s a good thing. Okay, so Darren, this is where I really want to go. Now, I want to know, you are so connected. It’s like you’ve had your ear on the pulse of what is happening in dentistry? I don’t know, five, six years now. With the EO what what is happening, like, I mean, if you want to use it as a retrospective of what has happened in the last five years, but mainly I want to know, like the next 510 years when when you think of innovation, when you think of whether it’s business models, or when you think of anything that’s emerging as the future of dentistry. What, what is that? 

 

Darin Acopan  43:01 

Great question. I don’t know that it’s worth it to just hang a shingle and run one location. I think declining reimbursement rates, increase costs of overhead and consolidation, make it very, very difficult, especially for a new graduate. So you and I graduated from USC. And then we’ve basically parlayed our undergrad into the education as well, now you’ve got half a million dollars in debt service, and you haven’t even hung a shingle yet. Like, how do you get out from under that? So I think number one, it’s the associates are really looking for that balance, right? They’re not trying to kill themselves, either. So there’s this perfect storm, if you will, I don’t want to stress out the way that my predecessors have. I’m more laden with debt service than they were. And so I’m probably gonna go for the place that pays me the max to get out from under this debt service. The other thing too, that Emmett told told, the team is, you know, for hygenist, there’s a shortage, right? Obviously, with hygiene. The problem is just supply and demand. Like for every five dentists that graduate, there’s probably only one or two hygienists. So there is a mismatch. So now, what are you going to do, right, you save you try to build your DSL, some of the DSOs are actually giving equity, like pick dental out of Colorado, they’re giving equity to hygenist. I think that’s great. I think that down the road, you can actually see that going over to RBAs. And to even front desk, right to do an ESOP sock plan option, right? large fortune 500 companies, you and I, if we work for Google, you can start buying shares of Google and they won. So I think that that direction of being more employee centric, is something that you have to be cognizant of. I don’t think any longer you can be a one man one woman show, be the doc that’s doing all the Clinical have one front desk and one assistant. Like, I think that model is dead unless you’re gonna go into a rural area with a town of 1000. Maybe it still works there. So that’s number one. Number two, I don’t necessarily think that DSOs are going to consolidate the way that managed care, consolidated medical. I think there’s enough optionality out there for even some of our members that are running $10 million organizations are more nimble than some of the larger DSOs. Right, they actually have the time to optimize and tweak things. They’re not necessarily beholden to a private equity sponsor that needs to kind of grow and flip every so often. And so there’s there’s that to contend with as well. So I think that the real sweet spot is actually not on the small end, I don’t even think it’s on the very large end, those that are the very largest DSOs, they figured it out, they’re playing virtual reality, while we’re playing chess and checkers, that’s fine. But for this mid market, I think that’s really where the sweet spot is. So if I was starting today, as a clinician, I would get really good at General Dentistry, then I would start forming alliances and getting the right partners and former group practice with additional service offerings, and I would expand ours, because at the end of the day, I don’t care how good of a clinician you are, you need to cater to the consumer base, which is convenience. And today, Shawn, you and I can get a reservation on OpenTable like that, but you can’t get a profi. Right? Even emergency dental is not really emergency dental at the end of the day. So I would create a group practice out of one major flagship location, and then talk amongst my partner saying, Hey, do we want to scale this out? We’ve proven this positive, do we want to scale this out to satellite locations and take control over our own referral sources. And I would probably do more of a hub and spoke surgery center in the middle, and then have GPS that feed into that surgery center, and then bring on additional specialties. 

 

Shawn Zajas  46:53 

So tell me, in your experience, at what point of scale, does it make sense for? I don’t know, a group of owners to all of a sudden bring in someone that maybe is a business specialist or a marketing specialists to be with them on the board? Like, is that the trend? Because again, like it or do they just try and they don’t try to get their MBA, like that doesn’t seem to make sense. Some of 

 

Darin Acopan  47:17 

them do, which is kind of ridiculous. But ya know, the thing you have to do is reverse engineer. So where do you and your partners or yourself if you don’t have partners? Where do you ultimately want to be when you grow up? Take some time away from the practice, because you’re not going to get the answer behind, you know, within your four walls behind your office door. Like you’ve got to get away, like get away. Think about it. Where do you want to take the business this weekend for all of you listening, or whenever this podcast launches the next weekend where you have some free time, get away from the business, get away from your family, go to your favorite coffee joint or wherever think about where you want to take your business and what the delta is between where you are today to where you want to take the business. And don’t lie to yourself. The number one comment I get is I want to be $100 million DSO, it’s like, no, that’s not going to happen for most of you. So where do you really want to take the business be realistic about it? And then from there? Ask yourself, okay, what is my organizational chart look like today? So right now you as the CEO, if you’re the lone, Dentist CEO, you’re wearing multiple hats. Maybe you have a team lead at the front? Maybe you have a team lead. That’s that’s an assistant on the clinical side. But what is your org chart look like today? And then what is your organizational chart need to look like to get to where you want to get to? And then reverse engineering so that that’s one of the first things that we would do with a new deal member is an org chart analysis. And then from there, you have to say, Okay, does my patient experience and the ideal patient avatar that I’m trying to service as a consumer? Does that fit that game plan? Because if you’ve got the org chart analysis and the patient experience mapped out, that’s a large part of the lift. And I would say the vast majority of owners when they come and talk to us, they don’t know what I’m talking about what I just mentioned to you, they haven’t even spent one hour thinking about one or the other. 

 

Shawn Zajas  49:12 

I think that’s the challenge is that you’re you’re using words, that I understand the terms like when when words become knowledge that’s communicated. It’s a term that we come to terms with the speaker, but I don’t know how many of our listeners are just hearing those words, and not actually catching the terms. And it’s not meant to be an insult. It’s just that what you just described is incredibly critical. And I think most business people would understand that. But yeah, I don’t know. So that’s why I 

 

Darin Acopan  49:44 

guess you guys are educated. Organizations like the EO and others exist, right? To educate me no different than you don’t want Shawn and I doing clinical. On the business side of things. You’re kind of in the same boat as we are clinically. So you have to get leveled up on the level of education. Get along. A lot of times I tell people, okay, based on where you went through that mental exercise of where you want to be, you don’t need to have an MBA for that you kind of know where you want to be, you have to ask yourself, What organization or coaching slash Consulting Group has the most people that have already achieved that. That’s where I think most owners fail, is they stay too long and coaching organizations or consultant relationships, that just like if they took You as far as they can go, and it’s been rinse and repeat for years, and that’s fine if you formed the friendship, but they’re not going to be able to get you here where you want to be. And beyond the $200 million mark, the eel might not be a fit for you. So you got to go find your forever home somewhere else. So that’s just sit as like, there are places for you to go. Where there are other clinicians like you that have that were once where you were, and now have leveled up. And now we’re at the point where, hey, if they want to, they can step away from the chair completely. Because I don’t think that’s the other thing. Right? Is the body was never designed to be clinical for decades on end. 

 

Shawn Zajas  50:59 

Right. Right. And that’s true. Okay, so I have a question for close. But before that, this is a perfect segue. If someone wants to reach out if someone wants to find out, like, what do you want to bring attention to right now the CEO is doing and what is the best way for them to plug in to that, 

 

Darin Acopan  51:16 

you know, leave before even qualify, just because I was gonna say no to seven out of 10 of you. The best thing is come to the summit that Shawn and I are going to be at right, I’ll even throw that promo code that I gave you as a friends and family discount. So like that the deal growth summit in San Diego is probably the best bet that’s June 8 through the 10th at the Grand Hyatt. So I mean, you can throw it in the notes, but that same promo code Darren, di da, R I N VIP, when you put that in the checkout, it will not it’ll give you a deep discount, I’ll just leave it at that. But that’s the best thing you can do. Because don’t believe me, don’t believe Shawn. Come see other owners that have actually done it, you’re going to actually see owners that have single locations, small groups and larger DSOs from stage talking you through exactly how it’s done. That’d be the best step. And you’re probably going to meet someone there that has already figured it out. 

 

Shawn Zajas  52:03 

I just need to be honest. So the listener is going to be like wait, wait a second. So Darren, something I forgot to mention is that this podcast, with like, I don’t know, 10, or 15 original episodes is launching June 7. So what that means for the listeners is that yes, we are recording this like a month prior because I’m doing my due diligence, getting everything lined up. So assume they can’t make it tomorrow, make 

 

Darin Acopan  52:30 

it if you can’t make it to that event, because you’re gonna listen to this on the seventh and the events on the eighth. So you might have missed the boat. And you’re just just go to do general group.com. The other thing is you can go to our free Facebook community, the EO growth secrets Facebook group, and that there are a lot of thought leaders that share ideas back and forth. There’s also a deal growth secrets podcast, right? So we actually have Emmet Scott’s the producer of that. He’s the emcee. He actually interviews the same way, Shawn’s interviewing me, thought leaders in the industry, how to scale how to optimize, those are free resources for you. But the other thing too, is just hit me up on LinkedIn, I guarantee I won’t the only Darren occupying in the world, send me a DM on LinkedIn, be happy to chat with you whether we’re a fit for you or not, I’m going to get you pointed in the right direction. That’s my commitment to Sean and his audience. So yeah, I think we’re not going anywhere. We’re only growing and scaling, but we’re scaling very, very intentionally. And whether you’re a fit for membership or not, we’ll just have a 30 minute conversation around that I’d be happy to send spend, you know a little bit of time with each of you that is interested in optimizing and growing. Case by case situation, I’ve even talked to D fours that aren’t even credentialed yet. So really, it’s I’m not above any conversation, I just want to make sure that you’re all in the audience in a better place at the end of the conversation than when you first call them. 

 

Shawn Zajas  53:48 

That that is amazing. Okay, so here it is, at some point in my pivot, but this just has been one that I really, really like, and maybe it might come as a curveball. So here you are today. And let’s say you walk by Darren, when you were 18 years old, and you’re just walking by in passing, and you have one sentiment that you can communicate to Darren of 18 What would you say? 

 

Darin Acopan  54:16 

I would say talk less listen more. 

 

Shawn Zajas  54:22 

Wow, I the pause was necessary there because that’s exactly what you’re saying. Talk less, listen more. And I feel like Darren like it is so it’s been so easy to honor you. You are a man of action. You are part of a company that is doing such amazing things in dentistry. Like I see so many organizations. You know, I’ve been in dentistry since 2000 2008. And there’s so much of dentistry that is a little odd and self serving and it’s hard for me to connect to. But the people that you’re organization are first rate, I love the integrity with which you operate. And I love just the innovation that is coming out of the CEO. So once again, Darren, thank you so much for joining me today. 

 

Darin Acopan  55:11 

Thank you, Shawn. really look forward to seeing you next month. And thank you to all you audience listeners. I’m super excited about this podcast and where you’re going to take it. 

 

Shawn Zajas  55:20 

Thanks for listening and be sure to follow so you never miss an episode. To learn more about what’s going on in dentistry, check out innovation in dentistry.com